Inside the Groundbreaking Farm That Boasts Three Pounds of Cannabis per Grow Light

Growing
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There is lots of ways to measure yield when dealing with a commodity.

Let me see if I can articulate some questions.

  1. As an industry how do we measure and articulate the cost benefit of organic versus inorganic production methods? “Plants don’t care but people do.”

  2. What methodologies should we use to measure yields? We need to have a standard methods like cotton, corn and wheat growers at each step in the production process.

  3. Where on the maturation curve do you see the industry? I see cannabis very early on a maturation curve.

  4. Specialty cultivars are important to growing the business. What can we do to improve performance of these cultivars? Has anyone tried grafting gifted cultivars to different root stocks like in hop production? This has helped hop producers improve yeilds in some highly desirable cultivars in hops?

  5. What production data do you monitor on a daily basis? As an old grower of specialty cut flowers, we tracked as many variables as we could to have the best IPM practice as possible and produce repeatable yields for our investors. We had to be very creative.

  6. What question have I not asked that I should?

Warm regards and from the voices in my head
Ethan

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I don’t assume that their exceptional yields are due to their “Success” brand nutrients. I’m sure they are simply adept at monitoring/controlling their EC, pH, environment. The secret sauce is the cultivar. We all know the highest yielders don’t have the best cannabinoid/terpenoid profile, but if they can make above average pre-rolls with it then they are nailing it.

In the WA rec market there’s a lot of people growing Blue Dream. In OR there’s a demand for more Dutch Treat. These are heavy yielding, pathogen resistant varieties. If a producer can move mid-grade production varieties in this competitive market they must be stoked.

I emailed Success Nutrients (aka Three A Light, aka Medicine Man Technologies) and they said "Our gardens pull between 140g - 160g/sqft. Those numbers are per crop and we have anywhere from 10-12sqft per light. "

Impressive, but I bet an organic program could produce comparable yields with a superior cannabinoid/terpenoid profile. Do you all think an organic/synthetic hybrid approach is ideal? Are you moving more toward organics or synthetics?

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I am a retired old fat! Not actively growing anything but fungus on my tuchas. But, historically cultivars have made all the difference across horticulture. This has played key difference in yield across all measurement. If we use hops as a suitably analog to cannabis no difference have been observed in the chemical profiles of organic vs inorganic production when using the exact same cultivars. Difference are obsesvered in the consistency of product produced in organic vs inorganic production models. You have to be a lot more skilled to be a master grower in a glasshouse to get good results as an organic grower.

Let me illustrate the main issues.

When it comes to organic vs inorganic growing methods I look at it in two distinct ways.
First socioeconomic of organic vs inorganic
Second from a production economic view.

The first is just a personal world view. And that has to be left up to the grower and the consumer to decide. Look at the marketing of organic produce and commodities to get an idea of the maturation curve for the cannabis industry. We are very early on the curve.

Second is from a nuts and bolts growers view. I love IPM, but I suspect without knowing for a fact, it is not being practiced well in the cannabis industry. We as growers in a startup, made a economic decision in 1989 that we could not afford the burdens of pesticides and fungicide in our operation. We could not afford the re-entry times or the labor in application. We implemented a very strict monerting policy for IPM. We charted daily counts from yellow and blue sticky cards. And made graphs of economic thresholds for the type of intervention required, biologicas were used 99% of the time. In six years of production we used a scheduled pesticides once and a fungicide two or three times. Anemones are a pain with a nasty fungal rots. The returns on investment where outstanding. We used bugs produced for the vegetable industry and some we grew or collected ourselves. We were ready to start production of a yeast, to prevent a fungal spot on Sweetpea’s and Botritis on renuculuas, when we sold out. And I was offered way more money to go full time into technology. We were young with a small child. We couldn’t afford a farmers life anymore.

When you look at fertilizers I take a different personal view. I am a big believer in chemical based fertilizers. A Plant roots can’t tell the difference between and organic sources and an inorganic sources. I wanted reproducibly in our nutritional regiment without having to spend large amounts of time every week doing complex chemistry calculation and assays to know what we were putting on our crops. I wanted bucket chemistry, I wanted only to spend a few hours each month doing complex chemistry, when the water assay came with the water bill. We had vary strict nitrogen source requirements to produce our crops reliably and repeatability, and this vary strongly dependent on temperatures inside the greenhouse. As the temperatures get warmer we could, use cheaper forms of nitrogen, but choose to use forms that more closely matched the crops preferred profile.

I worked with a large number of organic growers in glasshouse growing vegetables and was not happy with the poor results. More a result of inconsistencies in there teas, and the form the nitrogen took depending on temperature. We had a terrible time getting consistent commercial organic fertilizers as they are not required to list there nutritional profile if the call it plant food and not fertilizer. Calcium pure organic organic production is a nightmare. To have a plant available calcium is completely temperature dependent. The calcium has to be one of three organic forms, for a plant can even take it up. And then it depends on the species being grown. I do not know off the top of my head cannabis preferred calcium form. But looking at some pictures of crops I see marked signs of calcium not being as abundant as required for optimum growth. I see pictures where the buds are spectacular and I reasonably sure that high calcium is available during flower instanceation and development.

Much easier to be organic grower in a field setting.

P.S you grow what sells. No one wants a buggy whip.

From the voices in my head
Ethan

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Square footage is a critical part of deriving meaningful yield figures FOR COMPARISON PURPOSES. While this is particularly true when growing in a canopy-area regulated versus a plant-count state, it is also the only valid way to compare dissimilar techniques.
I can spend $330,000 and get a wide range of annual yields. How many feet I did it in, including the space utilized in each phase, makes a comparison of profitability meaningful.

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I would suggest that mixing organics with synthetics is generally a wasteful idea… I’ve heard claims (I chose that noun carefully) that some bacteria can survive being inundated with chemical salts, but I’ve seen plenty of scientific research which demonstrates the vast majority of beneficial microorganisms found in healthy soils are readily desiccated by the osmotic potential between living, permeable cells and salty water - meaning that you’ll be killing the biology (the main component of organic growing) every time you dump on chemicals. Some try to put living organisms straight into their water reservoir. I’d be perfectly willing to admit that a handful or bacteria might survive such an extreme situation, but the reason I think some growers are seeing a benefit is because all the dormant microbiology in the container inherently contains (is made of) a very well-balanced blend of nutrients, which are released upon the organisms’ death in an inorganic form (available for plant uptake), not because they are living in symbiosis with the plant roots…

As you may have guessed, I very readily suggest leaning towards organic, ecological growing! The benefits are many (we should start another thread here), but I think the most notable is environmentalism - that we should take a hint from food crop production and all the havoc its caused via synthetic nutrients and pesticides. It will only be so long before the general public catches on to how terrible marijuana production typically is for the environment, and I hope they do sooner than later personally. Why not start a progressive industry with a progressive mentality towards global well-being? Synthetic growing has its advantages. I’m not saying it doesn’t, and “organic” doesn’t equal good for the environment either. But I am saying that growing within a complex ecology is just so much cooler.

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Cool to hear of your experiences! I would agree that trying to grow organically, in containers, indoors, has proved more difficult than in a field setting. And you’re right about Ca being tricky too! But more and more information is being made available on creating a more complex soil for potting mixes. A well-done organic grow can produce pretty close to the same yield as a hydroponic grow. Yeah, it isn’t simple. Ecology isn’t simple at all! I like to think of it like cooking; as much an art as it is a science…

I’m sad to hear you’ve given in to the research sponsored by big agricultural companies making half-truth claims about how tissue analysis of nutrients are the same in organic vs conventional production. Many organic growers do in fact practice very poor stewardship of diversified microbiology, and what they grow is indeed no more nutritious than anything else. It also tends to be the type of practice made available for comparison in large studies… But when have you seen one of these research claims compare a farm who’s doing it right, so to speak, in their “materials and methods” section? -with a proven, healthy, diverse soil food web?

To think that a handful of man-made chemicals could replace in full an infinitely complex system built upon evolution for millions of years is an insane thought. Before long, we’ll all be growing with ecology because we’ll be backed against a wall from using such poor stewardship of resources.

I don’t mean to rant. I very much liked what you have to say! The outcome in ratios of various production models are like anything else (like you alluded to), chosen by people voting with dollars; and chosen by people wanting more dollars than they do morals.

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Today, we finally have good labeled organic water soluble fertilizers! They work! Plants on an ionic level do NOT know the difference in source. Standard plant physiology lab year one. That chemistry 1 and 2 are the prerequisite. I probably can find you the lab.

The ribosphere is all important in both organic and inorganic production. Any means that produce reproducible results are good. I have produced both organic certified and inorganic, both have many challenges that individual growers need to choose. A good ribosphere produces better results on all measures used. Lower pesticides usage, lower pathogenic problem, insect problems. Give me a measure where this is wrong.

Most growers are in the business for money. They are not doing this for fun. I want production with the lowest impact and inputs as possible across all of agra-business. But, I also recognize that we are feeding more than 6 billion people, today. Agricultural practices must change, but not at the expense of famine today. We need to foster more economic organic production. But, for many this today precludes fully organic operation.

I have lived and worked in places where the only nitrogen source available is night-soil. This just sucks. Every child in that community today, is at risk for 12 different human pathogens. These pathogens cause an increase in mortality of newborn to 6 years, because of night-soil. The mortality rates are almost 5 times as high as the developed work. What am I supposed to say to the parents in these communities? Composting night-soil does not help, it has shone to make the problems worse. Urine is composted, but alone is not enough nitrogen. Direct application of night-soil keeps most of these pathogen from breed resistance and coming up with new strains. Would you like the citations? The local farmers can not afford any additional fertilizers regardless of form. They are strict vegetarians, animal was may not be used to benefit people, but only nature. Slash and burn is often a requirement in these communities. They live on under $2 a day for a family of 3 or 4. Most of the families are multigenerational and extended. I struggled teaching soap making from wood ashes and water for lye, and rancid vegetable oil. Otherwise no soap. Salt was plentiful and at least allowed us to make chlorine stills for families.

We live on only one planet.

Pick your battles. Don’t call me a corporate shill, it’s not helpful.

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Let’s remember to keep this polite everyone. We can have disagreements without being disagreable!

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Yes dad! I will be a good boy.

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Thank you :slight_smile:

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I use a scale to determine yield :smiley:

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That’s great for yield per crop. How do you compare what you’re doing with other methods or technologies to see if they might meet your needs better?

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Indoor? gram per watt per day calcs.

Outdoor? Gonna need a bigger scale :smiley:

P.S. Where ya been Wolf? Still in PNW?

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@Pharmboy,

Per watt of actual electricity usage or per watt of lamps rated output? I am just trying to understand.

What is your input service 200 amp or bigger?

Just trying to understand the scale the efficiency. ROI vs actual cost overhead per square foot.

One more question dry or wet weight

From the voices in my head
Ethan Kayes

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dry grams per watt of light per day :wink: <<if I’m getting technical for others.

I still like an olskool yield per sq ft tho.
My length/days & wattage are pretty consistent.
45 days veg, scrog it, flip it @ 40-42w per sq ft.

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yup, working on finishing the book among other stuff pm me

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Interesting conversation between Cody and Ethan. There are good points on both sides and I appreciate that both are keeping it friendly. I’m currently trying URB with my hydroponic system using salt based fertilizers. I use Cultured Solutions Nutes at the moment, but will likely be switching to a powdered custom blend on the next few runs. I’m seeing a difference in just two weeks, the plants appear much healthier and balanced. I inoculated both rdwc systems on the first application and then add a maintenance dose weekly. I’m wondering if I should dose more frequently than once a week or not. Would either of you have advice or can explain what is happening with this product? I’m merely doing observation visually which isn’t very scientific. My system is very stable with very little fluctuation in temps, and I keep my water temps at 69 degrees with chillers. I’m not an expert grower, but learning and getting better everyday.

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Very well said. I definitely see your points. I just still see the area variable closely intertwined with cost per area. Agreeing with you, I do see that although you might have a production model that is the most efficient per square foot, you could still be making a higher gross profit if the yields are great enough in a less efficient (cost per weight) system. I sure know that square footage is a common limiting factor, at least in these parts!

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Yes sir, certainly I’m not saying that NH4+ or any other nutrient in its inorganic form is different molecularly, no matter how it was created. What I was really getting at is that there’s just so much more to it than that. The relationships between soil biology and plant roots (and foliage to a lesser degree) is so much more than just chelation of nutrients. But even then, if you’re looking simply at macro and micro nutrient availability, organic production allows the plant to be in control (via root exudates) of exactly what nutrients it needs at particular stages of growth. And then there’s strain specificity preference as well. As you said, it’s definitely not super easy to create a healthy soil from scratch (like for container gardening). I’m not saying that scientists haven’t done a damn good job creating synthetic nutrient regimes that work very well for all intents and purposes either. And yes sir, I have taken chemistry 1 and 2, organic chem, plant physiology, environmental plant stress physiology, etc.

The typical plant tissue analysis data might provide comparisons between organic and inorganic growing that look very similar, but just like a soil analysis - the provided picture can be very incomplete. I would suggest that most analysis covers a narrow portion of overall health. As a metaphor, you can’t get a complete picture of your own health from a blood sample alone, or an MRI alone. Living organisms and ecosystems are just too complex. There is so much information out there attempting to get at the differences between nutritional value in organic vs inorganic production. All the credible sources seem to agree that there are just too many variables that you can’t control for to get a clear picture. What is known that I find interesting though, is that we evolved eating microorganisms (eating non-rinsed food from the wild), and that the relationship between soil microbes and the ones in our digestive systems is very intertwined. Meaning that synthetic nutrients are missing out for the most part. I just think that we should use humanistic and environmentally friendly systems whenever possible. I do think they have the ability to be more productive, especially when done correctly in the long run.

I don’t mean to say that synthetic nutrients don’t have their place. I’m a little confused as to what you are getting at with your story of impoverished communities though. Could you clarify a little?

You have my respect by the way. I really enjoy this discussion. I don’t see it as an argument, and please, I assure you that I am certainly not trying to attack you personally. I very much apologize if I came off a bit crass before. I’m often just in too much of a hurry.

Cheers!

p.s. Just a friendly heads up, it’s “rhizosphere”

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My spelling is atrocious:) rhizosphere.

I agree with your point to a degree. We need to be aware of the social impact of our actions. For me this is key.

But, when you get into the nuts and bolts of organic vs inorganic. It becomes the same discussion about supplemental vitamins in humans. How expensive do you want your pee.

For organic fertilizers I just want better labels. So as a grower I can make better decisions. Temperature, pH, and light play such a big role in choosing a fertilizer and method. It is definitely not one size fits all.

From the voices in my head
Ethan Kayes

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