Cody, IMO the complex microbiol ecology in your soil just produces that same ions that I add to hydroponic in the first place. Sugars, etc. do not significantly pass through the semi-impermeable membrane that is the roots.
Soil uses microbes to make bat sh$t and other “organic” nutrients into the same stuff I add that came from a factory. Remember the placebo effect!
I believe nitrates and ammonia are all actively transported, macros aren’t getting in any high concentration.
Here is an interesting factoid. Organic compost can come from anywhere, as long as it was once living. This includes compost made from intensively raised cattle in dairy operations. The cows here are all fed cheap hay. The cheap hay was fed synthetic nutrients. Follow it back to that organic compost and most of that nitrate and ammonia was created in a factory at some point, right?
At least it is recycled.
Sourcing good materials is completely possible in most places. Quality of compost varies widely to be sure. I would highly discourage just going with whatever’s easiest or cheapest without looking into it farther. Make sure to buy from somewhere that is overly willing to provide their sourcing information and potentially include a laboratory analysis. Quite a few places are doing this now! I’ve been very happy with at least 4 different composts I’ve tried! It doesn’t have to be expensive either (though still much cheaper than buying anything bottled). We source from A1 Organics here in Colorado for $25 per cu yard, and it’s been great for 5 rounds now. We add more every round. In organics, you really don’t need much more than good compost when it comes to nutrients. Black gold!
So I would love to convince you otherwise!
Microbiology do produce nutrients in plant available forms that are molecularly identical to synthetic forms upon uptake. However, there are many many compounds that a never-ending array of soil dwelling microbiolgy produce, which can be taken up by plants.
Lots of sugar passes through the roots to the soil (not typically much in the other direction, as there’s no need since the plant makes sugar from free light and CO2), so they can move very readily throughout the plant via phloem cells and move through membranes and out into the soil.
Microbiological associations with plants offers an array of potential benefits. Plant uptake of nutrients (those same old ions) is one of them. They also produce a vast array of compounds (e.g. phytochemicals, secondary metabolites, phytohormones, flavanoids, etc.), many of which can be taken up into the plant itself. (Some help fight off pathogens and cycle nutrients without entering the plant as well.)
Some bacteria and fungi can actually enter that plant as living organisms and move all the way up to apical meristems. You will likely find (as we have) that a strain moved from synthetics to organics will eventually become all-around better acclimated to organics than when you first switched because of this.
Many species of bacteria and fungi produce compounds that protect from pathogens and disease. Our PM went from being a pain in the ass to being completely gone practically overnight (and it’s been over a year since I’ve seen a single speck).
They can also produce protective compounds that fight off nematodes and insects: the molecular chemsitry behind the activation pathways is vast.
They can protect against drought stress, water stress, and other abiotic factors as well. One well-known example is the plant-mycorrhizae relationship which can effectively increase root surface area well over 100X, thereby increasing water availability (and produce compounds that break down nutrients or increase resistance to pest and disease).
They can produce phytohormones that mimic plant hormones which promote health and vigor, sending these compounds through physiological signaling pathways, which I think is pretty amazing to mimic natural plant behavior.
Bacteria, fungi, protozoa, etc. produce an almost infinite number of compounds, many of which have yet to be studied as the symbiotic relationships between organisms to organisms and organisms to plants is vastly complex. To think that we can isolate a few ions and create something just as good is quite a notion… to put it lightly.
Quite a lot of research has been done (not in cannabis of course) highlighting the benefits of healthy soil ecology on plant nutrient value, a large part of which equates to all the compounds I mentioned above. Nutrients are just one group of compounds that move through plants, but there are thousands if not millions of other compounds that contribute to nutrition in general.
The marketing and sales implications of all this is another can of worms. Heightened complexity of metabolized compounds has huge implications when it comes to using cannabis as medicine. All canabinoids and terpenoids are secondary metabolites/phytochemicals, but many other secondary metabolites, the complexity of which are enhanced by microbial associations, are produced that create positive health effects for consumers. I can’t wait to see science start to tackle various combinations of compounds that target desired affects of diseases, mood, etc.
The end products of synthetic vs organically grown cannabis are not always markedly different, depending on cultivation techniques of course, but they certainly can be, just like we have seen in agricultural studies with food crops. Identical genetics grown in two different places will come out different no matter what, but there are a huge number of people that would argue an obvious/significant variance in effect, taste, and quality of organic vs synthetic products. I would be one of them of course!
As a business, the most important question is probably this: “Will there be a place in the market for organically grown cannabis from a consumer perspective?” Considering the organic craze in food, despite the ability of most to tell a difference in taste alone, I would have to say “most definitely”!
Here are a couple good links to get you started on plant-microbe interactions and physiology: Happy reading!
Thanks Cody. The only thing I get info from on plants is what I read. Never studied in school (engineer). What I read says that there are two ways of getting molecules other than water into the plant. One is diffusion and the other is the ATP process. Diffusion seems like a fairly minor process. But ATP seems to require a charge on the molecule in order to get into the plant. My books say that the root is a semipermeable membrane and that the ATP process is necessary to pump nutrients against a concentration gradient.
I’ll look at your links to see how large chargeless molecules can get into the plant.
All commercial compost is a combination of municipal waste, residential wate, food waste, and farm waste. It is ‘Organic’ by definition, not by source.
I took a look at A1 and it seems just the same as my local compost/mulch factory. When they say, “…produced from organic rich dairy manure and bedding materials.” It is little ‘o’ “organic” and not big ‘O’ “Organic”.
Laboratory analysis doesn’t tell you the source or even how much pesticide residue is in the municipal and CAFO waste being composted. I would assume most big ‘O’ Organic waste stays on the farm that created it, as it does on every Organic farm I have visited. Commerical compost is made from whatever.
Not that it makes it bad, OM is OM, but let’s not kid ourselves.
This topic is worthy of continuation…
How about soil less media vs Hydro? Any thoughts?
I have been experimenting with the virgin rockwool from Growpito. Instread of treating it like traditional rockwool cubes (think Big Mammas or Biggie Blocks from Grodan), I am treating it more like soil or Stonewool granulate. I am growing in large 5 gal square pots and the plants are beastly and healthy. I am seeing some very promising results. from this new approach to roackwool. Shout out to @GrowpitoRenee!
Has anyone else tried using loose virgin rockwool? Have you seen similar results?
Ever since encountering the book Bread From Stones and rockdust, I can’t help but recall what is said about using decomposing organics and the injuriousness of ammonia, versus active mineral nutrition from pulverized rock. A truly fascinating read with mountains of detailed, yet accessible information on much that is being discussed in this thread.
Wow! I can’t wait to read Bread From Stones! Thanks so much for posting such a valuable read, @JoeGrow! I am also afraid of ammonia buildup due to decomposition, but have added a microbe to my mix that actually breaks down the ammonia chains into a usable form of nitrogen that the plants are able to use to their benefit. Shout out to @ChrisM from SECOES!
Sorry for such delayed responses. Not much time to spare these days!
Haha, yeah, the word “organic” is pretty used and abused in agriculture. You’re correct about all that. I wish we could at least adopt the same standards in cannabis as in food crops so that consumers and growers aren’t getting tricked as much. I’ve met a few old school growers who, upon questioning, didn’t know what growing organically really even means…
I try to look at chemical contaminants in a “minimum acceptable” mentality, since like you pointed out, almost nothing is truly without contamination. Probaly even the farthest reaches of Amazon rainforest has acid rain contamination of some sort. I mean shoot, we use tap water, which has quite a few additives that are certainly not organic or Organic, but I consider environmental sustainability a high priority and make choices often based on that over purity because purity often comes at a high cost… or might just be all but impossible.
I would still say that there are plenty of “good” sources of compost and other organic amendments out there. Municipality waste can be iffy, but you can research your local area procedures or try to find pasture raised manures and even talk to farmers about pesticide use. I would avoid biosolids altogether. It takes more effort probably than it should, but I would like to see this industry move away, at least in some part, from shrugging off environmental considerations in place of money, accessibility, and ease of use.
It is the difference between 10 cents and a dime…
I doubt you will find an Organic farm that sells their compost, and pasture raised animals are just that, pasture raised. Who collects manure out of a pasture? Nobody, that’s who.
Can I ask for clarification on what you’re referring to? What exactly is it you’re saying makes no difference?
Organic materials can be sourced according to different priorities, and harmful contaminants can be avoided in large if not full when put into terms of “will this harm my crop,” or “will I run into contaminants that would cause consumer health concerns?” I think the cost overall to environmental health, consumer health, and sustainability is much less than in synthetically fed systems, and that the benefits of growing organically (with an emphasis on sustainability) far outweigh the potential risks. It’s the difference between turning wastes into resources vs the continued exploitation of environmental resources (and health of future generations) in exchange for short term financial gain.
And I’m not looking to start a big conversation on animal husbandry, but pasture raised (or naturally fed) operations absolutely collect a potion of their wastes that they must spread back out, sell, or give away for free, which is often composted first. I had a conversation with just such a rancher on this topic last weekend. You might have to look around a little bit, but quality sourcing takes a little effort no matter what kind of products you’re buying.
Soil is the best option if the cultivator is seeking higher terpene profiles. Check out SoHum Living Soils. This soil contains dense, all-natural nutrients and tons of microbes. Give your plants the buffet of food that they crave and allow them to consume what nutrients they want at various stages of the plant’s life.
And for consulting: www.americancannabisconsulting.com
