Yeah, PGRs can be really dangerous when they’re misused. I’d leave that stuff to laboratories doing experiments, not for people who are untrained in the chemistry/biology of them.
I do want to do an experiment with colchicine though. >.>
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I can tell you the the mega growers understand the need of testing during the grow cycle. The problem is you have to spend several millions of dollars to purchase the correct instruments that will provide you with accurate reading. You need the experienced staff to run those instruments and still you will need a third-party certified Lab to test your plants before they go to market.
KB Labs will develop a grow monitoring program. We are the only lab that can being several millions worth of instruments to your grow site. More information will be forthcoming. www.kblabsaz.com
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Synthetic PGRs have been banned for food consumption crops since the 1980s. Using a known toxic substance on a medicinal crop is misuse, ipso facto. HookTube
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Word in California is that the upcoming testing regime will require licensed cultivators to allow SC Labs to come into your facility and collect samples for testing, while recording on video the whole operation.
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SC Labs? Really? My past experience with this lab has been other than satisfactory. Without getting into too much detail, if you have the desire, send them samples of the same flower in 3 seperate envelopes, from and back to 3 different names, and let us know the results.
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I have a big question regarding the use of wood in flower rooms.
I’ve worked with many medical growers who utilize wood beds lined with pond liner. Even in rooms with low VPD (80-85f and 70-80rH) I’ve never observed mold on the wood. I have been warned by companies that wood will harbor mold and increase the microbial bioburden in finished product. I don’t agree with this statement, but I’d like to know if any of you have thoughts, observations, or data on the topic.
Thank you so much!
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Hi Jaya,
Wood is believed to be very porous and is on the higher end of harboring microbial and bacterial life which also makes it very difficult to thoroughly clean, at least quickly. With that being said you technically should not be letting your Flower Room get to the humidity levels that harbor Mold and Fungus growth, otherwise you will be in danger of mold and fungal growth on your flower do to environment controls. I would say that wood beds are definitely not ideal especially in comparison to Plastic Trays but if the Environment is kept in check along with thorough cleaning and best growing practices with IPM you should be just fine. Hope this helps. Good luck and Happy Growing!
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I know the use of wooden implements is not permitted in commercial kitchens because wood has many microscopic ridges and alcoves that can harbor microbes, even when properly sanded and maintained. Additionally, wood has the problem of swelling when exposed to water, which can make it structurally weaker and permit even more microbes in, which can get locked into the wood itself.
That said, if you’re catching mold/mildew issues before they become a problem, I don’t think wood will tip the scale against you.
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Interesting thread (actually about 10 topics but ok), but lots of good reading and input. Thanks to all who have contributed. The radiation article was interesting, I wonder if it’s possible to treat living plants (clones) with gamma radiation and still survive and produce?
Anyway, I’ve been a commercial grower for 15 years, if any of you are from ICMAG.com you’ll probably recognize my handle. I’ll throw in my $.02 here though.
Given the systemic nature of powdery mildew in cannabis, topical treatments are incapable of curing the infection from without. Integrated disease management in agriculture relies on rotating different groups of fungicides, so that the same group isn’t utilized twice in a row, or more than twice per crop. Given the short lifecycle of cannabis, especially indoors or in light dep greenhouses, building a biological soil web of beneficial bacteria can take weeks. Organic controls like potassium bicarbonate, peroxide and the less-popular spoiled milk spray all have limited efficacy, and do nothing to cure the infection.
Environmental controls are all about prevention, but of course even with the best controls, infections can happen. Low RH, intake air filtration, and sulfur vaporizers all will help reduce your risk, but never eliminate it.
Even with poor environmental controls, an effective disease management routine can be very effective at preventing, or curing acute infections.
The trouble with most fungicides is that most food-grade products are designed for fruits and vegetables that are washed prior to consumption. We simply don’t have that luxury. Given that hops is the closest listed analogue we can find on a fungicide label, we can begin to search for products that are effective on hold with foliar treatment, have a relatively short pre-harvest interval (PHI) and hopefully, all belong to different fungicide Groups.
Quintec is a Group 13 fungicide, with a unique mode of action, and efficacy is 14-21 days. It doesn’t cure PM, but works very well at preventing it from forming in the first place.
Procure 480SC is interesting, it has a 14 day PHI and is a Group 3, and works very well on PM, but is also pretty effective against botrytis (black mold) as well.
Sovran is another fairly new fungicide, Group 11, that has excellent protective effects like Quintec, but also works as a curative for PM and botrytis infections.
All of the above are rated for hops, available for purchase online from Amazon or Keystone Pest Solutions, and though expensive, they basically have an unlimited shelf life. Most have application rates of 1.5ml per gallon or less, though we usually use weaker concentrations and utilize a different spray every 20 days (same with miticides, different families every 20 days.)
We regularly lab test our flowers at Steep Hill, and although we do rotate a number of sprays, they are dilute enough, infrequent enough, and flushed out long enough to not show at detectable levels on the mass spectrometer. No sprays of anything systemic within 4 weeks of harvest. No sulfur or organic sprays, pyrethrins included, within 2 weeks of harvest. If you still have problems with PM at the end anyway, there’s something really out of whack.
Eagle 20EW was long the standby for growers, indoors and out, but despite having a “tomato dosage” on the label, it isn’t actually even food-rated by Bayer. In California, it is not uncommon to find PM that is E20 resistant, but fortunately, several much better products have become available in the last couple years.
Looking forward to reading and writing more, thanks again all, have a good night.
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Oh I forgot to mention, earlier in the thread someone had mentioned chlorine and chloramines.
Contrary to popular belief, cannabis isn’t really sensitive to either chemical at normal levels. Cannabis can withstand up to 100ppm of mobile chlorine without ill effects. It’s actually pretty hard to keep it at any kind of level in an aerated reservoir however, as it offgasses within a few hours.
As an experiment, I treated one my tanks with liquid bleach, and another with pool shock (basically powdered calcium hypochlorite) in RO water until both reached 100 PPM. Both tanks had 5 large airstones, sharing a single 110lph air pump, heated to 71*F. Within an hour, the liquid had already lost 50ppm. The powder was a little slower, about 3 hours. It was late so I had to go to bed. The next evening I used a pool chlorine test kit, which measures down to 1 PPM. There was 0 chlorine in either tank.
Chloramine doesn’t bubble out like chlorine though, but for us “dead-res” folks it helps keep the tanks and lines cleaner, and the medium free of fungal infections that feed fungus gnats, though chlorine and peroxide are more effective at this.
H2O2 (peroxide) is a pretty unstable molecule, and bubbles out even faster, but even in an un-aerated tank, H2O2 will lose the extra O1 and oxidize anything within a couple hours, leaving plain water behind.
In either case, if you want to use chlorine or peroxide, they’re generally safe for plants as a medium drench, but dose the chemical right before application, or you’re not going to have anywhere near the potency.
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Marco, one question from your earlier post on radiation:
Regarding THCA levels dropping as a result of decarboxylization, but this specifically is a desired effect when making distilled concentrates.
THCA can make up as much as 30% of a flowers cannabinoids, which aren’t psychoactive. By decarboxylizing THCA (removing carbon to leave delta-9) we end up with good old THC. Though several devices have been invented to perform this process, heating concretes or extracts to 192*F for 19 minutes can quickly convert almost all of the THCA into THC.
Isn’t THCA just kind of a waste, in extracts at least?
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The link about pesticides found in extracts doesn’t surprise me a bit, most people making them can’t tell a polar substance from a non-polar one.
Basically it boils down to the market demanding these raw concretes, as light as color as possible with the least processing. Which is a shame, because additional processing (such as decarboxylizing) can make concentrates stronger, but cleaner as well. Whether the contaminant is polar or non-polar, there are several ways to wash it, but they affect the color or smell.
Raw concretes can be dissolved in ethanol (since chloroform is hard to get) winterized, washed with salt-saturated water and hexane, and washed until the THC is nearly pure. All polar compounds will be drawn to the water, but as it’s saturated they will settle out in a separating funnel. Wash with more water until clear, drain off the now contaminated ethanol, dry the hexane with more alcohol until it’s dry and no longer smells of hexane (your nose detects it at 1 ppm). Heat to decarboxylate and voila, nearly pure and very clean extract in the 80% range of THC.
Problem is, it’s dark brown, has very little terpenes left, and is impossibly sticky at room temperature. Just doesn’t retail well. You could add terpenes back, but you can’t make it blonde or waxy again. Sigh. Oh well!
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Once its moldy it’s garbage
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SpectrumGro offers an Air, Water and Light solution that has proven to be effective in eliminating PM, botrytis, molds, fungi and more. The approach follows food service protocols that utilize an overlapping / redundant approach for food safety. Hydroxyl air purification kills virus’s and bacteria’s (utilized in the medical surgical field to eliminate airborne pathogens), Aqueous Ozone purifies the water and is a strong natural disinfectant (FDA/EPA approved) with the only residue being water and lastly is the Pathogen Death Wand that utilizes a specific formula of light spectrums that safely and effectively destroy PM and the associated microbial pathogens. This AWL solution removes the need to spray ANY herbicides - eliminating risk of failure for Pesticide testing and microbial threat is eliminated naturally utilizing AWL solution. So far over 1500 plants from more that 30 strains in 3 states have been grown using this method with no fails reported from state certified labs. Studies have shown and state there are no deleterious effects on the cannabis using this methodology. Look into it, I think you will be surprised.
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Lazyman, There are alternatives to spraying fungicides that treat the problem more effectively and leave no residues. One item the Pathogen Death Wand eliminates PM, molds and other microbial pests with an LED light strip, there is no UV or radiation emitted so there is no damage to the plants or loss of potency. It is safe for growers and plants.
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How does UV light cure a systemic infection? I understand that it can alleviate visible symptoms, but have you had “cleaned” plants lab tested for contamination? I’d be concerned that the infection would still be present.
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I can’t answer that question. I work with SpectrumGro who offers their Air, Water and Light solution to eliminate microbial colonization within commercial grows. We stay far away from UV for too many reasons to go into here. Their approach to remove the microbial threats is purification of the air, aqueous ozone for irrigation and disinfection and the Pathogen Death Wands for constant protection and elimination of threats on the plants themselves. No residues to be tested for as there are none and it has been validated with state testing in Colo to be equal to spraying in eliminating microbial threats with no deleterious effects on the cannabis. I know several commercial facilities using them and are very pleased with the results they are getting.
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The LED light strip sounds pretty interesting Brett. I looked at the SpectrumGro website, but didn’t find an explanation of how it works in this context. Can you provide more detail or point to a whitepaper?
Thanks
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Joe, Their technology is proprietary and has patents and patents pending. My understanding is that for a “proper” white paper they would need to divulge certain secrets that they are not willing to do. I have asked for same and that is answer I have received. I can confirm their technology does not employ any UV light and is 100% safe.
I have been involved in all the studies the company performed for validation in the cannabis space and have witnessed first hand the PDW strips ability to effectively eliminate the microbial threats and pass the state mandated testing every time. Not a single fail in over 1500 plants grown. We have had growers now in CO, CA, NV and WA confirm the same results. All with no herbicides being utilized on the plants. This product helps to take the insecticide residue and microbial tests off the table - Naturally.
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Very interesting Brett. I can only think of Royal Rife’s work in the 1920s/30s, who used modulated light to destroy various pathogens:
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ciencia/ciencia_virus03.htm
Either way, sounds like a great company to be associated with!
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